Bonus Episode: Rethinking Spiritual Leadership in Times of Ecclesiastical Upheaval

Join us as Dr. Angie Ward shares her journey from traditional church leadership to organic faith expressions.  We explore Angie's pivotal moment during a leadership class that sparked a reevaluation of church leadership. Our candid conversation delves into the tensions of spiritual and vocational disruption, reflecting on the necessity of embracing uncertainty without rushing for resolution. As theological education faces a crossroads, we discuss the decline of traditional institutions and emphasize the need for adaptive thinking. Through Angie's insights and the stories of spiritual leaders, we invite you to join us in reconstructing faith, leadership, and communities in an era of ecclesiastical transformation.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

you're listening to the reconstructing pastors podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:10

I'm ruth lawrenson and I'm kirk romberg.

Speaker 1: 0:13

We're recovering pastors talking about what it looks like to make sense of our calling and community expression on the other side of deconstruction our hope is to create a safe space to explore the bigger picture of the church, both the present state of the American evangelical church and what the future may hold for those who are searching for a better way.

Speaker 2: 0:35

We're really glad you're here. Let's get started Today, ruth. I'm super excited for our guests that we're having today Angie Ward. Dr Angie Ward is a leadership author and teacher with nearly 30 years experience in church, parachurch and Christian higher education ministry, and she's an award-winning regular contributor of one of my favorite publications, Christianity Today, particularly in the leadership publication section, and she is also a highly regarded teacher and collaborative leader. She holds a PhD in ministry leadership from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. She serves as director of doctor of ministry at Denver Seminary and that's actually where I got a chance to start getting to know Angie. She was introduced to me by a mutual friend, roland Smith, who is, among many other things, the national director for Forge America, of which Angie also sits on the board. I'm not seeing that in your bio, angie, but that's.

Speaker 3: 1:37

I know I better put that in. I want to tell Roland.

Speaker 2: 1:41

So welcome, Angie. Thank you so much for taking this time to be with us today.

Speaker 3: 1:45

Yeah, so glad to be here with y'all.

Speaker 1: 1:47

Yeah, thanks so much, angie, for coming, and we feel especially honored because we're in Colorado, so you're a Denver person and we love what you're doing in Denver Seminary.

Speaker 1: 2:02

We were there a couple of weeks ago and just enjoy that space with you and we are thrilled to have you and your thoughts and your experience on this podcast, because I think what our hope is is that, as we talk about some of these real things, it gives people this space to just process a little bit of what is happening in some of the areas of Big C Church and the future for Big C Church.

Speaker 1: 2:29

So thank you again for joining us today. Now, one of the things we want to kick off with just a bit about you really, because obviously Kirk just lists off a bunch of stuff, all of these things that you do and you you know you've achieved, but also you have your own faith journey in the middle of all of this and, um, we know just from talking with you that you've actually had a bit of a journey, a movement from, you know, this traditional uh church to more organic expressions of church, and we'd just love to find out a little bit about that before we kind of dive into some of the leadership issues and thoughts that you've got for the future.

Speaker 1: 3:13

So would you share a little bit, introduce yourself and share particularly about that journey of faith for you.

Speaker 3: 3:20

Yeah, sure. So yeah, now I'm at Denver Seminary, a group in the Midwest, group in the church, and so I've just been in the church all my life. Had a great youth pastor and his wife, as part of their influence, felt a call early on in college to youth ministry. So I've been just following a call to vocational ministry all my life. So it took me in camp ministry, took me to Denver Seminary as a student. My husband and I met and married while we were students here and then I was doing youth ministry and he was doing, and then youth ministry, leadership development and then broader leadership development, got my doctorate in teaching while he was a pastor. So we were around the country for 25 years before coming back to Denver Seminary just about four years ago, right at the start of the pandemic. But so, like you said, I've got a PhD in ministry leadership from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. You know I have degrees from Trinity from Denver Seminary. I've been doing this ministry but about seven or eight years ago now I was teaching a ministry leadership class and I was writing for a leadership journal. So I'm all about the leadership stuff. And so I was teaching a class, not here at Denver Seminary at another school, a ministry leadership class, and I was teaching leadership the way I had experienced it and been taught it, which was really much the kind of the rise of leadership, kind of that whole industry and franchise. So Bill Hybels, tom Peters, the Global Leadership Summit, all that kind of stuff. You know, everything rises and falls on leadership, john Maxwell, and church and ministry the way I had experienced it and taught it, which was a particular stream of evangelicalism and really it's a stream of, I think, protestant Christianity that we've had for centuries, you know, if not millennia. So I'm in this classroom and I've got this kind of group of students in kind of a U around me and I'm talking, and in the middle of talking with them I had this stop cold, like my heart just kind of dropped.

Speaker 3: 5:29

And as I realized I'm teaching to a particular model here of church and to ministry and to leadership, and I just realized suddenly it was a model, not the way, and I was like and I don't know how we got to this model, it's a very leadership heavy thing and I don't know how we got to this and I don't know if I even buy this model. And then I was like, whoa, that has significant implications for, like, my career, because that's what I was going to be doing and I have a degree. I have a Christian college degree. I have a Denver Seminary ministry leadership degree. I have a Christian college degree. I have a Denver Seminary ministry leadership degree. I have a PhD from the Southern Baptist Theological Center.

Speaker 3: 6:07

I mean, I've I've read this stuff, I've written this stuff and I know more about leadership than I do about the church and I was like and I think that's a problem certainly for me and I don't think I'm the only one with this problem, I think I think this is hurting us in evangelicalism and Western evangelicalism. And so that was kind of this very disequilibrating moment where I was like whoa, and started this journey of on my own going what is the church really and what is it supposed to be and do? So I'd taken some systematic I'm sure I had a little section on ecclesiology and systematic theology in seminary, but that was it. All the rest was about leadership and we kind of I assumed these models and paradigms and so that has led me on this journey that continues to this day of just really going what was God's you know design and intent for the church. How have we gotten off track? How far have we gotten off track? So I've got that and at the same time I'm a pastor's wife, I'm doing ministry and kind of traditional church structures contemporary traditional, you know what I mean Like just kind of assume structures for that and start having more and more questions and also realizing parts of my soul weren't being fed by what I call the kind of evangelical victorious and that model, you know.

Speaker 3: 7:26

And and as an introvert and sort of realizing, I have a contemplative side and going like I'm just I'm at a different place now and I don't know where I don't feel home anymore and even the churches that my husband and I were pastoring, you know, and so again felt this discomfort and what to do with that and so fast forward a little bit. So I'm wrestling with that. We come to Denver and it's the first time in all our married life, after 25 years, where we get to or have to choose a church instead of one being provided by the job, because we moved from my position at Denver Seminary and so but everything was closed because of COVID and so I'm missing community, trying to figure out, wrestle all this stuff. We kind of bounced around a bit. My husband served as an interim pastor.

Speaker 3: 8:11

Ultimately last fall I felt like I've been intrigued by more organic stuff microchurches, that type of stuff, even as I'm teaching leadership and ministry and trying to question this stuff in my classroom. So my original aha about eight years ago led me to develop a class that I taught I teach here at Denver Seminary in our Dean Doctor of Ministry program before I even started working here called Reclaiming Ecclesiology, and it was really me working out this stuff with my students and going like, are you noticing the same thing? So as part of all that journey, this um this in this new year my husband and I have started we're calling it a table community um on Sunday nights where it's just a group of us gather on the table. We have, you know, I would say we're informally liturgical in that we have movements of like um gathering and confession and the word and the table um, you know, the Eucharist and ascending kind of thing, but it's just everybody's participating. We have, about right now, four families with kids of various ages. So we're very experimental, which for me as a leadership person kind of taught that leaders have the answer and everything rises and falls on leadership. It's organic and that sounds beautiful, but it feels messy, it's very soupy and so that's where I'm at.

Speaker 3: 9:28

So what I'm doing at Denver Seminary before we hit record, we were talking about just the dichotomy of here I'm teaching ministry leadership and I'm doing this organic thing. I am finding that my students are all asking the same questions or had never been challenged to think about it before and creating that space like you're doing here. We just I just got done teaching it again. In January we had a week long intensive and that course has become. This is the third time I've done it and it's become literally life-changing or trajectory changing for many of them and myself included.

Speaker 3: 10:01

And here at Denver Seminary at least, there's a lot of faculty and staff that are also deconstructing church. I would not say faith at all. I mean I was talking with somebody Sunday night and they said you know my belief in the cross, all that is more foundational than ever and more. But all this extraneous stuff I'm just jettisoning a whole bunch of stuff right now, so that I mean so I feel like I'm sitting in a place. Thankfully I'm in a space at Denver. Summer we can have those conversations very freely and openly. So that's a long answer to your question.

Speaker 1: 10:34

Oh, it's brilliant, angie, and I loved hearing that story. I'm curious.

Speaker 1: 10:38

I just when you mentioned that moment, you know you were in the room and then you're suddenly kind of questioning this whole thing yeah, it's like an out-of-body experience yeah, I'm sure it was, because it's like and the reason I bring this up because I think a lot of leaders right now, a lot of pastors, ministry leaders that have been in this for a long time, like maybe you know 15, 20 years and you know, there you are, you've got so much investment in this thing and it can be. I'm curious around the feelings that come with that of like, oh my gosh, what do I do with that? What do I do with these questions, when all of you know my, I've invested career-wise, I've invested in PhDs and masters, and this is what I've done. And then there's this kind of pivot to questioning and journeying, which I think can be really scary for a leader to embrace. So I would love to hear if you could speak to anyone who finds themselves in that space right now, like because obviously you're, you're a, you know you're not there anymore. You've kind of journeyed further from that.

Speaker 1: 11:50

That moment sat in that room thinking, hang on a minute. I didn't even really believe in this model. But you've kind of journeyed a bit further down the road and now you're just um, experiencing this really life-giving space in Denver Salmonary where you are able to ask those questions, and it's not just, was that a waste of time? But now it's like oh, hang on a minute, we get to reimagine something here. Could you speak to leaders that find themselves in that moment of?

Speaker 1: 12:16

out-of-body experience like what have I done? You know, could you? I would just I'm curious what encouragement you could give them yeah.

Speaker 3: 12:24

Well, first you're, first you're not alone. Not at all, not by any stretch. I mean, there are and I hope I hope your, you know listeners, you know those of you who are listening are are finding that if you just dare to, the more people I said to, I don't know, they went me too. You know, let's, let's talk together and just just. And so you know, maybe you saying, hey, are you seeing this? You know kind of thing will give people freedom to kind of question and to speak. That it's very disconcerting.

Speaker 3: 12:55

It really is just a shift, like I feel like the ground is shifting underneath you, and so so it's also normal to feel that disequilibrium, and I felt it for a very, very, very long time. Sometimes I'd be like, well, maybe because I was like I was letting go, well, I don't think it's this, but then what is it? And so then I just felt that I was in this wilderness and I still am kind of there Like, well, there's good to this and there's good to this and there's bad to this and bad to this. And how do you pick apart all the threads of that? I know some folks who just kind of throw out the whole thing and just go, I'm done, you know. And others who frankly and with good reason say you know, I've got five more years and I'm invested in my pension and I don't know that I can afford to make a leap right now, you know, or and so um, but I'm going to keep asking questions, you know, kind of things. So, um, people are just very different spaces. So it's okay to be at whatever place you're at and sit with the tension. It's um.

Speaker 3: 13:55

I think it's a little funny that I'm quoting, quoting Andy Stanley, who's about, as you know, traditional big church leader, as you can, but I think he's into us a lot of things about leadership really well, and he talks about some things we view as problems to be solved and instead they're tensions to be managed. And so I think part of that next stage, as far as like the critical journey, is just being able to sit with tensions and not having to resolve it all. And I don't know if you've talked ever on this podcast or if you all read the book the Critical Journey by Janet Hagbert, but for those who are in that season of the wall where things what worked before isn't working now or doesn't feel like it's working, either going back a step or going forward feels more stable, just because this feels so unstable. And so some go back to what's familiar and comfortable and and this is what I know I need a box or something to stand on and some just kind of push through and others just abandon the whole thing altogether.

Speaker 2: 14:50

Yeah, I think that's. I'm super glad that you brought that perspective into this conversation, because obviously what we're talking about is not just a shift from one model to a different model.

Speaker 3: 15:02

Yes.

Speaker 2: 15:03

That at some point could be an outcome and different versions of you know. But it's not about models. It is about it's almost as if the pandemic pushed like a massive swath of people against the wall and we're grappling with that. So it's more than just an external journey, but there's something internal that's happening and that internal journey is causing just an upheaval of questions to, thankfully, allow us to re-examine what it is that we're doing and to, as you say, live with the tension. And it sounds like, from what you're saying, you're in an environment at Denver Seminary where that's okay.

Speaker 3: 15:44

Yes.

Speaker 2: 15:45

Which is amazing, because that's, to me, is the heartbeat of academia. It's not just answers, it's thinking, it's an environment that encourages discovery, not just solutions. And I say that at least at this moment, and I'm going to move past it. But we had a couple of kids who were in a similar institution in California and it was the kind of institution where a certain narrative had to be subscribed to by the staff and the professors and if that narrative wasn't subscribed to and the staff and the professors, and if that narrative wasn't subscribed to and supported, that they were out.

Speaker 2: 16:28

And I found that to be massively discouraging in an environment where my kids were encouraged. They're young adults, they're in their 20s. They want to be encouraged and they're encouraged by people ahead of them in the journey who are actually grappling and don't want to just spoon-feed them a narrative, and they're encouraged by people ahead of them in the journey who are actually grappling, yeah, and don't want to just spoon feed them a narrative. So I feel really encouraged and attracted to that environment that you get to be a part of. But also, as a segue to our next question, which is what is the conversation and maybe it's a Denver seminary, maybe, maybe it's a broader conversation that you're picking up within academic circles Is there a conversation about not just a shift of models but really a shift in eras for the local church?

Speaker 3: 17:18

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:18

And what is that conversation?

Speaker 3: 17:20

Yeah, well, I know we are having it. I'm having it at least with some, some with some colleagues here and with my students in the doctor of ministry. I get to create kind of this microcosm. You know my own little subculture here, which is great. You know, in Denver Seminary and other seminaries we're we're grappling with not just the decline of the church as far as the previous institutional church and trust in leaders and trust in institutions, so the decline of that, the decline of evangelicalism, and also the decline of theological education of seminaries.

Speaker 3: 18:02

So, and so we're kind of trying to do all those things at once and I think different people are responding different ways. Some of them are trying to just find a different package, a different container. I think what you said before people have to ask the right questions. We have to ask the right questions, not just look for different answers. And so I think some institutions are going how do we return or get back? And I think others are trying to. You know, ask these questions, open up different things, but in the middle of of the things just falling apart under your feet. So, um, yeah, I think people are asking, asking questions or seeing the shifts, and they're responding in different ways.

Speaker 2: 18:49

Yeah, yeah. So what I hear you saying is some are buckling down harder. How can we take what it is that we're doing and make sure that, uh, we are, um, just reinforcing it where, where it's plugging the holes in the Titanic and we're not sinking? We are, uh, and others are saying, well, wait a minute. No, we are. Uh, there's something that is happening and it's time for adaptation.

Speaker 3: 19:16

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:17

And that's interesting. And so what is that like then at Denver seminary, in specific, Interesting.

Speaker 3: 19:23

And so what is that like then at Denver Seminary in specific, ask me, in five years? No, I don't know. I mean well, I mean I think we're. What is it like in Denver Seminary?

Speaker 3: 19:40

There's several colleagues and we're reading a book right now called the End of Theological Education, by a guy who's talking about, yeah, we're at an end of, I think, a major era. And so Phyllis Tickle, in her book the Great Emergence, quotes an Anglican bishop who talked about every 500 years, the church seems to have a big rummage sale, and you know, the last one was the Reformation. Well, you count forward 500 years, and here we are. And so I think people are realizing, and in the book Ted Smith, the author he talks about, he doesn't talk about decline, he talks about unraveling, and so he talks about just all the structures and the institutions and kind of this ecosystem, church, parachurch, seminary, everything that has grown up and so around all that. And so I think we don't know what's next. You know, we're we, we don't see this clear thing. And so it's a friend of mine one time said instead of like he's leading from a submarine, so instead of leading from the deck of a battleship, he has to lead by sonar.

Speaker 2: 20:50

Yeah, that's a great analogy. Yeah, and I love that because sonar has to do with what it is that we hear, not necessarily what it is that we see.

Speaker 2: 20:54

I mean, you might see it on a sonar monitor, but the sound is picked up. And that seems to resonate with what I'm hearing from other people, in that this is a season not so much for figuring out as much as it is a season for slowing down, taking stock, decompression, deprogramming and not figuring out what's next, as much as looking back to the one that we're seeking and to re-engage in the voice of the one who wants to lead his people, not really and make the destination. Where are we going? Almost an afterthought is who it is that we're seeking and in that space, embracing the lim liminal, embracing the in-between, and what is he doing in us which, when you look at the ecclesiological landscape, it looks like a lot needs to be done in us yeah, I think I agree with kirk.

Speaker 1: 22:00

There seems to be this kind of caution around, or even inability to know, like I don't know whether it's a caution or an inability to see what can be next, and I think that that's actually a gift in some ways. As much as we want to kind of chart the course and figure it out, I think that there is, there's a gift, I think, the Holy Spirit's given us at the moment of space of pause, of reflection. In fact, our first episode of this podcast was, I think it was called Pausing for Reflection, space to See the Mountains. So how can we even see if we don't pause, especially if there's this era shifting? We even see if we don't pause, especially if there's this era shifting, if we are living in such these times of an era shifting, um time for the church. I think we need the time to to reflect, to think through these issues, and I think that takes time, um, and I know for me as a visionary, that's so frustrating. I just want to get to the next thing, you know, but I think I can't. I can only just imagine what that is for the, for academia and and training future leaders, and how do you do that like? I mean, there is tension there in that space. So it leads me to another question and she um, if I'd love your input on this, as we, you know, as we close out this episode really, but we just want to.

Speaker 1: 23:27

I mean, obviously it doesn't take much to see what's happening in the, you know, there's this crisis of leadership that we're seeing. As, as a leadership um professional, someone who's studied leadership so much, it must be very disheartening to see that we're seeing church leaders, especially in the mainstream evangelical church. We've got abuses, scandals, I mean just even the recent IHOP International House of Prayer in Kansas City, and that's just one. I mean, it's just like it feels like there's dominoes on this, like everything. A lot of leaders are falling, and it's not just the leaders, it's like I think the layers that that are involved in those spaces then are exposed, and I think it exposes and it leads people to those questions.

Speaker 1: 24:21

But I would love to hear your thoughts, your take on, you know, as a leadership education professional, like, what is your take on that and what is your response? And how? What does that make you what? I guess? What does that make you want to want to do for the next generation of leaders. Is there any response, not just like, ah, this is awful, because I think we're all with it, like that is a response that we're all having, but is there any way forward? Is there any way to solve some of these problems? That was a lot. There were a lot of questions. I was going to say, yeah, can you clarify that.

Speaker 3: 24:58

Yeah, can you clarify, like crystallize into a question more of a?

Speaker 1: 25:04

OK, just just your thoughts, your, your, your take on what's happening in the Big C church, church scandals, any, any thoughts off the bat?

Speaker 3: 25:16

Well, I think we are. I think the pandemic has exposed and accelerated kind of some shifts that were happening already, this kind of rummage sale kind of thing. I'm encouraged that people are having these conversations. I mean, we don't know what's going to come from them yet, but I think what I want to do is just continue to create the spaces to have these conversations, like you all are doing here, um, and let people know they're not alone and we don't have to have it all figured out right away, um. So I actually have a lot of hope because I think some needed questions are finally being asked yes, so would you say.

Speaker 1: 25:57

It's like almost, because the light is being. You know, we're seeing light being shined on some darker issues, but we're actually seeing it, so that's very hopeful.

Speaker 3: 26:09

I think I am. I mean, yeah, I don't feel discouraged at all. I think these are necessary questions. I think they're hard questions, but I think they're necessary questions.

Speaker 2: 26:19

Yeah, what do you think that? I mean? Maybe it's not a new thing as far as leadership abuses and scandals and just the whole kind of top-down CEO model. Maybe it's always been happening and now we're just looking at it, or maybe it's because high-profile issues are drawing attention to it. But, as a leadership, professional teaching, training why do you think these are happening to begin with? What's, what's your opinion?

Speaker 3: 26:51

Well, I think the world has changed, the culture is changing. I think, boy, that's a big question. Might be a whole nother podcast. Yeah, because I think we've gotten overgrown in our old systems and institutions and needed to be no-transcript. What we're doing is getting the results we're getting, and so people are starting to question maybe we're doing the wrong thing. And as far as kind of some assumptions about church and institutions and how people grow and all that, I think at least the Western church bought wholesale into kind of this leadership paradigm. Not that leadership is not important, but I think we uncritically bought into some, uh, worldly models of, and assumptions about growth and and all that kind of thing, and I think we've neglected formation out of that. We're seeing some results of that. So I mean, I think, I think the church is at a wall.

Speaker 1: 27:53

You know, to use the hangberg thing, yeah, yeah so the church is on its own critical journey yeah, I think so yeah, I think one of the things that I think, from just talking with people on, you know that have been responding to some of these, uh, abuses, scandals, whatever they are, I think that there's, you know, on one level, I think there there is hope, but there's also this vast disillusionment from people, especially people who are have invested. So it's the same sort of thing that we talked about earlier. This investment. Not maybe they haven't been leaders, but they've invested their lives into something for like 15 years.

Speaker 1: 28:39

And then suddenly, when it's so, when it feels like so black and white in terms of hang on a minute, was that even real? Like I think that that that's a there's a shock factor for a lot of people. Um, so, in terms of as leaders, I think it's very hopeful because we're thinking, oh, finally we're getting to the roots of some of this stuff that isn't, it was never supposed to be there in the beginning, so now we can actually figure out what's next. But I think, pastorally, there's a concern for people's faith journey, because it is, it has there's been a level of trauma and, I guess, damage for people who are, you know, suddenly a leader falls and they can question their whole faith. What would you, would you have any encouragement for people Maybe they're not in leadership, but people who find themselves in that position right now?

Speaker 3: 29:33

Well, just that again. I mean, you're not alone. God's there in it with you to be open with him with everything you're feeling.

Speaker 1: 29:41

Well, I guess your story, just even your own story because you're, you're speaking into leadership, but then you're, you're in, you're in your own faith journey too, is encouraging to know that actually, as you wrestle, you're in the wilderness but there's also signs of life and hope and table communities also um signs of life and hope and table communities and, yeah, god's, god's in it, god sees, um, it's.

Speaker 3: 30:10

It's not a short, I mean it's. It's not easy and it's not instant, it's a. It's a god wants us more than what we can do or the answers we can have for him.

Speaker 1: 30:19

Well, angie, we've loved having you with us. But before we wrap up, we want to hear about what you're up to. You've got some thick, you've got some irons in the fire, so to speak, so would you share a little bit about that? And as we wrap up, yeah, so I'm actually.

Speaker 3: 30:35

I mean, this conversation about what is the church and what I've been doing in my classroom has turned it into I'm working on a book for InterVarsity Press I'm putting the finishing touches on, called the Whole Church for the Whole World, church and Parachurch for the 21st Century, and so you know, I'm looking at what, this question what is the church and how did we get here? I'm looking at this question what is the church and how did we get here? And so just kind of asking those questions, about like trying to ask the right questions, not just looking for the right answers. I think we have to ask the right questions first.

Speaker 2: 31:08

That's real good and we look forward to hearing that come out. And do you have any idea of the timeline and when we could be looking for that?

Speaker 3: 31:15

Yeah, it's coming out next March or April. Yeah, from University Press and you probably don't have a title yet because editors have. I think they're a part of choosing that with you. Well, the working title is the Whole Church for the Whole World Church and Parachurch for the 21st Century. Whether that'll land on that I don't know.

Speaker 2: 31:35

All right, we'll be looking for that. Angie, it, as always, has been an absolute delight to talk with you and to hear your thoughts, because because listening to you articulate your thoughts about church, about leadership, about what God is doing in the bigger picture is so refreshing. Development of integrity for me is that you're living it out, you're tooling it out in your own personal life. So there's integration there, which I appreciate, not only the perspective that that brings to the conversation and to your education, but just also the sense that this is a holistic thing for you, that this matters, and so that gives me encouragement, that gives me hope, and I hope that does so for our listeners as well. So thanks, angie.

Speaker 3: 32:20

OK, yeah, thanks, glad to be here.

Speaker 1: 32:24

Thanks for listening to the Reconstructing Passes podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and review.

Speaker 2: 32:36

Or leave a rating and review and if you're interested in leaning into this conversation further, we'd love for you to be a part of a special online community coaching space called Reconstructing Pastors Cohort. For details, visit our website at bridgeandrhinocom. See you at the next episode.