Reconstructing Pastors Podcast
Welcome to the "Reconstructing Pastors Podcast" with your hosts, Ruth Lorensson and Kirk Romberg. Join us on a transformative journey as we dive deep into the heart of faith, calling, and community in the midst of church deconstruction.
In this thought-provoking podcast, we invite you to eavesdrop on our discussions with each other (and our guests) as we unravel the intricacies of navigating life beyond the institutional church model. We confront the church's complexities, controversies, and challenges in order to understand what we need to leave behind as we discover what's next.
With humor, empathy, and a dash of irreverence, we engage with profound questions surrounding faith and church culture. And we do so with an unwavering commitment to creating a safe, real and welcoming space.
Tune in to the "Reconstructing Pastors Podcast" and be part of a movement that envisions a better way for the church and all those who seek meaning in a rapidly changing world.
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Reconstructing Pastors Podcast
Pack Your Bags: The Abrahamic Call for the Church to go Somewhere New
In this episode, Terry Walling, founder of Leader Breakthrough, is our guest. He's a friend, someone who exudes wisdom and a leader we trust. As someone who's been in Church ministry for over 30 years he is now wanting to finish well by paying it forward. One way he's doing that is through his book (pre-launching September 2023) 'Unlikely Nomads'.
In this episode he shares his insights on how the traditional church is experiencing a deep-seated transition - what he believes is an Abrahamic call to journey towards something radically different. Those heeding the call are what Terry calls the 'Unlikely Nomads' - courageous committed Christ followers who are making the choice to step away from the traditional church and follow the voice of the Shepherd.
We discuss how the journey away from institutionalized faith is not smooth. It's laden with challenges, misunderstandings, and, often, a deep sense of loss. We acknowledge how trusting in God's plan becomes paramount during this transition. It's a journey of surrender, letting go of familiar structures and embracing uncertainty.
We'd love you to tune in to this important conversation.
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You're listening to the Reconstructing Pastors podcast. I'm Ruth Lawrence in.
Speaker 2:And I'm Kirk Romberg. We're recovering pastors talking about what it looks like to make sense of our calling and community expression on the other side of deconstruction.
Speaker 1:Our hope is to create a safe space to explore the bigger picture of the church, both the present state of the American Evangelical Church and what the future may hold for those who are searching for a better way.
Speaker 2:We're really glad you're here. Let's get started. Welcome, we're here this morning with Dr Terry Walling. Good to see you this morning, terry.
Speaker 3:Nice to be here. Terry's good Doctorate makes me feel like I'm on the spot, so it's great to be with you guys, and I have been looking forward to this, because how does a bridge and a rhino fit together? That has been the most critical question.
Speaker 2:It's a very critical question and we'll have to save that for another podcast conversation, good For our listeners. We, how we know Dr Terry Walling We'll just call you Terry for now. How's that is through coach's training, through Leader Breakthrough, of which Terry is the founder and the president. You want to tell us a little bit about that, terry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, leader Breakthrough is basically a creation that I had. After many, many years of coaching, I realized that sometimes we were coaching the problem or the issue somebody was facing, but not realizing that God was actually using that situation to take them deeper in their development. So what we did is created not just coach training but merge coaching and lifelong leadership development together so that we could better coach the person as they recognize what God's at work doing in the situation that they face. So I created that about 15 years ago. Before that I was involved in coaching. Before that I actually had pastoral ministry background. But Leader Breakthrough in essence is trying to help coach and resource Breakthrough in the development of risk-taking Kingdom leaders. So how about that?
Speaker 1:That's so good, and we are. I know I can speak on behalf of myself and Kirk. We're so grateful for your leadership and for all of these years that you've just invested in these resources, because part of our trajectory has been to be coaches that help leaders purpose-driven leaders to have spaces to question, explore and discover what's next. So we appreciate that and we're so grateful that you're here. We are a friend to us. We feel very grateful to be in this space with you, terri, and as much as we've done just coaching with you over the last year, we've just had a few conversations as well about some of that spiritual journey that we're on, and so thank you so much for being here on this podcast.
Speaker 3:My honor and I think the podcast itself is hitting at such an important time because we are at, I really think, a defining moment in the life of, especially, the church in North America and, in particular, the United States. And so what you're doing to help the leaders, I think is essential, because everything not only rises and falls on leadership. Everything rises and falls on godly leaders who lead out of spiritual authority as opposed just to natural abilities. So what you're doing to help bring insights to these leaders, I think is absolutely critical, so I'm excited to join along with you.
Speaker 2:Well, you mentioned critical time and Ruth and I were talking over coffee just a few days ago about a sense of timeliness at the intersection that we've had with Leader, breakthrough with you and our own journey, and come to find out that you're on your own transition. You've done so much work in the field of transitions transitions for individuals, for leaders, and here we are in this massive transition of the church and that leads to and I don't know how that overlaps with your transition into retirement and what that looks like but I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about those things and how those are interplaying.
Speaker 3:We're not in a massive transition of the church because I messed it up. Now I'm getting out of town, but I do see, in my own personal journey over 30 years, something that's been transpiring for quite a while in the local church in America. My passion has been how do we get alongside the local church and help her be who God's called her to be? That was my first go going in when I pastored. By the way, I pastored the church I grew up in. I would not recommend that to anybody. I've been to counseling but I'm okay. But anyway, I have been on this journey that took me to Australia for five years to see what God was at work, doing in the church, and come back and work with a mission agency focused on revitalizing the local church. But this 30-plus year journey that I've been on has, I think, culminated in not just the end of my journey but an important moment in the journey of the local church in America. Because I do think that the pandemic and everything that we went through was a signal to us. I think it was a signal that, even as the churches in America closed for a while, I think it was a signal that we were coming to the end of a major era of the church.
Speaker 3:If you ever have read Jean Tickles, you've written the book the Great Emergence.
Speaker 3:You see in there that she shows us how there's kind of 500 year segments of the church, the last one being the Reformation that happened in 1517. God's not bound by formula, but after a period of time Jesus actually moves into the church and in some sense it sounds so strange. It takes her back and actually does a new work in her expression as things change within the global world in which we live in. And so you know, I read that kind of stuff, all of us have read that kind of stuff and said, well, that's interesting. But it was at the pandemic when I all of a sudden hit what I call the finishing transition, where I believe God actually is asking me to focus in on what I have so I can give it to others and they can do it better. I began to realize something is happening that is beyond just trying to get the churches opened again. Something is happening that Jesus is jumping into, I think, taking his sheep to a new place. Yeah, go for it, ruth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just gonna say it because I want to talk about talking about giving something to others, and I think you know that's the part of your journey that you've been discovering. I mean, you've been someone who loves the local church right, you've poured your life into it and the leaders in it, and just these last few years, that recognition of hang on a minute what is happening Is God doing something, a major work in the like an era shifting time. And one of the things you are giving to others right now and I want to raise this right at the beginning because I think it will help set the scene for this conversation is that you're about to launch a book called Unlikely Nomads, really addressing this topic. So could you just talk a little bit about that and just a brief overview and obviously you've already shared as to why, what's led you there? A little bit, but talk about that.
Speaker 3:Sure, well Unlikely Nomads actually came out of my coaching. I've been coaching leaders all over the world, lots of leaders in the US, and I began to realize, probably two or three years ago, that the seeds of what I think we're experiencing now we're now starting to come to fruition. And there's a whole group of people out there who actually have stepped away from or left the local church, but not because they're wanting a different worship service, don't like the sermons of the pastor, aren't disgruntled, you know, overall with the leadership. There's a whole group of people out there who actually were hungering for a different expression of church, and what I mean by that is they're hungering for an authentic life with Jesus that has lived out together with others who are also passionate for that. And yet they were caught going to church.
Speaker 3:Many of these people were caught leading small groups. They're the deacons, they're the elders, they're totally committed, because sometimes you know when people leave the church, the church has been really good to write them off. Oh well, they had a problem anyone has. Oh well, you know they're always like that. No, no, that's not these people. These people are the ones passionate for Christ and really many of them have given years of their life to the church, have tried to hang in there through all of its up and downs, hoping that someday things would change, coming to the realization it's actually institutionalized and it's not going to change.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you said that word, terry, because it seems like you referenced COVID, when you know, we're told all over all of our lives to go to church, and then COVID happens, and then we're told don't go to church, and so we don't go to the building, we don't go to the institution, but we're still the church, exactly Well, for the first time there's this massive separation between the church and the institution in terms of our daily life experience, but with a vacuum of leadership behind it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and what you said is right on the money, because after having seen this group of people and watched them and even coached them then going through the pandemic, I watched the closing of the doors actually in some sense ignite more to come to the realization there's got to be something more Right and we're actually experiencing the real church underneath the closing of the institutional doors.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I even saw pastors and key mission leaders and others who actually, to be honest, I think had held on because of, in some sense, the guilt of not wanting to be one who quits, actually said no, I got to move on, yeah. And now they're out there, the unlikely, what I call the unlikely nomads, and it's unlikely because they never thought this would be them. Yeah, but, but now it is in the midst of, I think, you know, let's make sure we're biblical, I think, john 10, where Jesus talks about my sheep hear my voice and follow, yeah. And I think what's what's happened is Jesus has left the pen, called out the sheep Not all of them probably will come. That's the reality we ought to deal with, but Jesus is taking us to a new pastor.
Speaker 2:That's so good and I'm glad you said that, because I think swirling around in the conversation, for good or for bad, is this word, deconstruction, which is such a huge word, and this is called Reconstructing Pastors podcast. To move on to the positive side of the conversation, and you know there's theological deconstruction, church deconstruction. We're kind of limiting this conversation to church deconstruction, and whether people identify with that word or don't is not so much the point as much as oftentimes people who are going through exactly what you're describing right now are given the advice go ahead. You know, deconstruct, just do it in the church. What would you say to that?
Speaker 3:I would say I think there's a better. So many of the people I hit. I know there are other people deconstructing their faith and I understand even some of the reasons for that, but I think what Jesus is doing is deconstructing the church. So if that is actually maybe at least plausible, to consider staying inside of the church as it's being deconstructed by Jesus to create a new church doesn't make a ton of sense to me. What really makes sense to me is Revelation 3.20.
Speaker 3:And Jesus standing at the door and knocking and we've imported that as an evangelistic verse, but those who have studied that passage know that's Jesus asking for his church back and Cam I come in and will you let me come in, and will you then do what I need, I think is the absolute key, which is really hard for us Americans, and that's surrender. Will you actually give her back to me? Because the power of and the prize of surrender is Revelation. If you'll give her back to me and align with the work I'm doing, there's a greater chance you'll see the new place I'm taking her. If you don't, then you're caught in ambition. You're just gonna make this thing work no matter what, and that's a dangerous position.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that that's some of the stuff that me and Kirk have experienced in our own walk. I would describe us as unlikely nomads and I just want to say thank you for validating those people because I know that for me, I never thought I would be in this place. I didn't even know what I'm doing on Sunday. All of these, I've been breathing this air for 25 years. I would say that I've given my life to want to build the church and in some ways I still do, but not the institution. So I think just that validation of it's so easy to write people off and say are there backsliding? And I think that there is a narrative, a little narrative that's coming from people, I guess, who are a little in fear of what's happening or don't understand it, where there's assumptions that can be made from people who are following the voice of the shepherd outside the church, the established church right now.
Speaker 3:Let me break in just for a second to tell others through you Unlikely nomads are still incredibly passionate for the church. They still believe in the local church and they still want to see her expressed in a way that allows others to see the authentic Jesus. A lot of this has to do with what the local church now has become in the eyes of the people who stand outside and look at her and say I could never attend that place if it holds opinions and things that it purports to represent. It's gotten to the place where something new has to happen in order to allow people to actually hear the good news of the grace and the love of Christ. I just want to validate not only that choice, but I want to also validate that the people who are unlikely no man's have not given up on the church. What they've given up on is the current expression of church. There's a big difference there.
Speaker 1:I think there's courage and also I think it's maybe prophetic and un-lonely. I think that I have been involved in prophetic ministry for most of my life as a pastor. It's been something that I love, following the voice of the Holy Spirit. We have versions of what that looks like in the institutional church. I actually feel like maybe I'm living out the prophetic ministry more in this hour than I've ever done by giving someone a word of encouragement. You know what it's lonely, it takes courage. It feels like I'm walking a path that I don't even know where it's going. But that is the prophetic right.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and that is actually in line with what I found. Personally, I've done a ton of work on researching personal transitions. What I didn't realize over the last 10 years is how close the way personal transitions happen tagged into the way corporate transitions happen. In other words, there's a pattern to them, but in a transition there's that loneliness, isolation, confusion, feeling like I've lost the plot, feeling like I've even lost God in the midst of this, can't hear his voice, can't actually understand what it is that's going on. Everything that used to work doesn't work.
Speaker 3:I mean, if you think about it, that's been the journey of the church in the last five to 10 years, and so the transition that we're all in, I think is an Abrahamic transition, and what I mean by that is when God in Genesis tells Abraham to go, he says pack your bags, go. Abraham responds back great, I'm going to play with the text a little bit but where are we going? And God says, no, pack your bags. Yeah, okay, but tell me what the destination is and I'll go. No, pack your bags. In other words, some things, and this is the period we're in. We have to, regardless of even the scorn we get from other believers. We have to pack our bags and go and you behave your way into what's next and discover how God's at work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. It's a beautiful analogy on many levels. But what struck me when you were talking, terry, is the fact that what instigated that entire movement of Abraham was one thing, and it was the voice of God. It was Abraham hearing God. And it reminds me, as you were talking, of something I heard you say a long time ago, probably in one of your teachings. Somewhere you said when we hear God's voice, there's hope, and where there's hope, there's courage.
Speaker 3:Hope and courage are linked together and when people lose hope which a lot sometimes is the pastors and the leaders you're trying to encourage when they lose hope, they lose courage. But when they regain hope they're willing to look again at the same set of circumstances and see them differently and respond by following. And that's what John Tent says my sheep hear my voice. So voice recognition is absolutely critical for reconstructing pastors. That's his voice saying. But then it says they hear my voice and they follow. So it's an act of obedience and alignment to voice and voice recognition.
Speaker 2:So that leads directly to, at least in my mind, what seems to be the most natural next question what does that mean for leaders today within the local church? What would be, in your mind, a word of advice, or what would be number one on the priority list for anybody who is seeking to lead themselves as they follow Christ and maybe hopefully lead others as well?
Speaker 3:And you know I'm a lifer. I grew up in the church, literally grew up in the church. My folks went to church, or they went back to church, because they had this little kid they didn't know what to do with, and so we were back to church. We went to how about this? Real quick, we went to a small church that assigned you. You had to clean the church once a quarter. My dad used to put towels around me, lay me in the back of the church underneath the pews, and this happened, rolled me down. I had to roll down the front to clean underneath the pews. One of the first. Get ready for this. Holy rollers, boom, all right.
Speaker 3:Anyways, it's actually the truth, even though I've used that joke before. But the reality is I grew up in this thing and one of the hymns I remember singing turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in his wonderful face. If you do, the things of earth will grow strangely dim the eyes of His glory and His grace. I think the first thing it sounds even simplistic, but it's not simple and that's this we got to turn our eyes off the church and back on Jesus. It's king. That's the very first thing we got to do.
Speaker 3:See, we always run to what's the task I got to do, but Jesus' model has always been first come to me. In fact, that's what he said in Mark 3, you know, come be with me, then go minister for me, and you'll have the authority to drive out demons. So personal renewal precedes and catalyzes corporate change. The very first thing, before we make any long-term decisions, is actually fixing our gaze back on the one who's come in to take over After that happens. Do not expect, though, that the net result will be maintaining what is so. What is really coming is a different kind of church, expressed in new ways. So we got to first fix our eyes on Jesus and then let go of what it could mean if Jesus starts to lead in new ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm curious, terry, what you think. I love that and I think you know that's. I think what's interesting to me is that I would imagine most leaders, most Christians that are leading churches or in ministry positions or whatever, would say that they're doing that.
Speaker 3:I know.
Speaker 1:So, but I hear what you're saying because you're saying turn your eyes on Jesus and let everything, with a surrender, right of everything in a new, fresh way. Yes, but I'm curious about what you think is stopping people doing that, leaders, like, what is stopping that happening? What do you think are some of those things?
Speaker 3:Well, I think you know I don't want to be really tender because I myself am going through this, okay but I think we're going to have to come to the realization that this means everything you got to give your job back to him. You got to give your title back to him, you got to give your influence and even position back to him. It could mean being a barista at Starbucks as we start over. So one of the things that's actually holding us back, I think, is we are enmeshed into this system and institution that when we think about giving it back over, we start thinking about kids that are in college, bills that we've got to pay, all the things that, almost like Hebrew says, can so easily entangle us. And the author in in Hebrews 12 says lay aside the things that could so easily entangle you. Now Make a new, resolute commitment that I'm following him, no matter what it takes, and then start declaring that journey to others. And that's when the rubber meets the road, that's when, all of a sudden, people will get mad, that's when, all of a sudden, the possibility of disagreement will begin to happen. And the implications of that route, I think, is then the next step in it Assume some different postures, you know.
Speaker 3:Assume the posture of stillness so you can hear his voice. Assume the posture of daily surrender so that you can actually recognize his voice. Assume the posture, really, of letting go of some of the things that actually we have built this whole thing around and allowing him to actually start showing you the new ways he wants to do it. Assume, actually, the posture yourself of a re-apprenticing. Here's what I think is the absolute key Re-apprenticing the life of Jesus, not fulfilling the demands of the job, but I'm going to return to the life of Jesus and do everything I can to start acting and living out the life he lived. All of those things, you know I was going to say all those things I cover in the new book, but all of those things actually are part of, I think, a whole new rhythm and set of postures that we've got to have, so that it's not just fixing our eyes on Jesus Know it's behaving our way differently into the future.
Speaker 3:And and then finally well, not finally, but one other quick thing is, I think God's raising up a whole bunch of new Expressions and new leaders. So you, you got table curators out there. They've been having people over for meals and they've been showing us what that some of the new looks like you've got. You've got Sacred coaches out there who've been helping people kind of figure out. You too are a great example of that. You've got spiritual architects who are actually out there designing new places for the church. I mean, if you get eyes to see, you begin to realize, holy smokes, there's a whole thing going on out there that I haven't recognized Because I've not been in a posture or a place or even a space in my life to allow it to be seen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. It I Few years ago. I paint houses is one of the things that I do and which I haven't done in the you know professionally before, and it gave me different eyes. I see every white van on the road. I Was coming home from hiking a Local mountain and my son was with me. We hiked together.
Speaker 2:We're at an intersection and and we were on our way to 7-eleven to get a slurpee after the hike, where the stop light and Van goes by with this really incredible ladder, and I said Kyle, look at the ladder on that van. And he looks over at me, says dad, you have never admired the ladder before, but you're right, when we put ourselves into new spaces, we see things that we've never seen before. And right now, what I think I hear you saying is you're talking to people who may be listening to us right now, who find themselves in exactly that place, who they have. They've journeyed out of the pen, so to speak, and maybe didn't even realize until retro. They have been following the nudging in the voice of the shepherd and Maybe they're experiencing family pressures, maybe they are experiencing Some questions and doubts of people because they're going off-road. What would you, how would you encourage somebody in that space?
Speaker 3:You're not crazy. I know that sounds really Strange, but you're. You haven't made it up. This isn't bad pizza. It's not just the result of a bad weekend at church or anything like that. You're hearing the whispers. They're hearing them. You're not off, you're hearing it.
Speaker 3:And the more you actually Recognize that you're not alone there are hundreds and thousands of nomads out there trying this in the same way, and the more you start to move toward that, the more you begin to actually, I think, recognize that you're a part of something new. And I don't know about you, but I know I'm an early adopter. But but the reality is that's where I want to be. You know, james tells us a very encouraging word here's your life, that's it. A vapor, a T cattle, steam, exile. That's it. Are you? We got just these few, a lot of days. Think about this. This all happened on our watch. Now, I don't know where your view on the sovereignty of God is, but if this happened on our watch, this must be because God wanted us present during this time. I Said go with it. Find other nomads to go with.
Speaker 3:Recognize that, as you do, you're gonna feel exactly like those poor Israelites and and the journeys that have been on with other nomads Trying to follow God. It's not going to be easy, but here's the good thing it's gonna be right. You're right in the place he wants you to be. And when people go through transitions, there's this beginning stage, there's a time of of, of questioning, there's a time of alignment and then there's time of direction, and a lot of people that are listening have been through this Personal transition, as God, in some sense, like Abraham, says Okay, you're ready, pack your bags. Don't look back, but pack your bags and let's go forward. And I think one of the things that people sorry, ruth, one of the things that that, that that people need to hear more than anything else right now, is a very simple word, and that's this faith. Trust me. God is saying to us I know what I'm doing, but don't believe in me because you know where it's going. Believe in me because you know me in a new way.
Speaker 1:I was just going to say I identify with that and I think it feels like you're literally describing my journey over the last few years as someone who's, like I said earlier, who's just been very passionate and committed for the local church and still is. But it was around COVID I felt I heard the voice of the Holy Spirit. It's time to go, ruth, make yourself available. You need to get out of the current situation and it is it's, and what I would say to unlikely nomads is that it will take courage because people, there's a lot of misunderstanding out there and there's a lot to learn.
Speaker 1:I feel like this kind of like oh my gosh, you know, even it feels uncomfortable not going to a Sunday gathering, you know and and and it's like, well, what is that about and why have we got? Is that just learned behavior or is it community? And so there's a lot of sifting that you know you'll have to embrace and that's okay, you know it's okay, and a lot of people won't understand why you're not going to a Sunday gathering, but for me, anyhow, I I felt that I needed to kind of remove myself a little bit in order to find those new behaviors that will take me into the next phase. So I just want to encourage any listeners that are out there who really identify with what Terry is saying right now is that, yeah, you, there will be a little bit of misunderstanding, you'll need courage, but actually, as you sift through these things and it's a real sifting journey it's not, it's not a clear shot and we don't even really know where, what. Where we're going looks like, which is terrible.
Speaker 3:Exactly. We don't, we don't, and and and that's why a lot of people won't go they're holding out. I just need to see what it looks like, what's the new model of the church look like, and then I'll no, no, no, no. Nice try, you know, but no bananas, you can't. That that's not going to work. The reality is no, we go, and as we go, he reveals, and as we work our way into it. And, by the way, one other word that sounds almost negative you and I can minister out of duty and responsibility for only so long and so many of your listeners. It feels like it's lack. It's not a very responsible person If I finally say I need to go, but if you keep ministering out of duty and responsibility, you will burn out. It's the recipe for burnout.
Speaker 3:I was, I participated in my mentors. A guy named Bobby Clinton wrote the book the Making of a Leader. We studied over 3000 historical, biblical, contemporary leaders. Here's the one thing that stood out. The number one issue that resulted from studying all those is this this sad thought that few leaders finish well, only one out of three. So in their finishing well, the reality is better men and women than us have fallen, so don't be in the category that says I've just got to keep hanging in there, because in the end it could actually be the thing that takes you down Not take you toward Christ, but takes you toward a church that Christ is to you.
Speaker 1:That's so good. As we're wrapping up now, I just want to like come back to your book, because we know it's coming out soon. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and what to look out for? Like I know, me and Kirk have had the privilege of reading through it, which has been so. We're honored to do that, and I. What I would love to say is that I think it's a pivotal book for our time. So if listeners, if you see it, please get hold of it. You know, buy it If you're interested in any of the stuff that we're talking about. It's just an incredible gift, Terry. Thank you, An incredible gift right now. So, but tell us a little bit about what we can expect.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know I you can expect and hopefully it'll come out soon this is 2023. I don't know when people listen to this podcast, but the fall of 2023. So what you can expect is not actually just like your typical book. What you're going to expect is this In the book I present why I think things have changed. So that's the first part, kind of laying out the case of the change. But I thought that I don't want to do that. A lot of people are doing that, but I do review that, but it moves into what I six posters and six guides. So, in other words, if you, this is you, here's ways to approach a posture as an approach, here's way now to approach the days ahead. In other words, adults don't transition into nothing very well, so if I'm going to transition, what does that look like? Here are six things that describe that life, and then here are six guides that are all around you, that are out there, that could help you as you begin to live into this life. The book ends with me talking about now.
Speaker 3:So, terry, what's the bottom line? Fixing our eyes on Jesus is one of the chapters. Another one is recognizing and let the mysteries return we have in the age of enlightenment we have formula the church and Jesus let the mysteries return and then create new spaces for God to speak. Those are kind of the residual coming out of it, but I think what you and what you can experience is I share my 30 years trying to pay it forward. Here's all the things that I've tried to learn and discern and see, but here's how they might help us to move into the future. So it's not a theory book, it's an on the ground practice book that's trying to actually help us now head out into this journey with a clear understanding. We don't know where it's going, but we are following the one who we know is leading. Unlikely Nomads, I think, is an apt description for the remnant or the new group of people God is now speaking to about a new day for his church. There you go. How'd they do? Is that decent? All right. So there you go.
Speaker 1:That was pretty good. I'll buy it. I'll buy it.
Speaker 3:And, by the way, be of good cheer. We're rounding the corner and headed toward home, so it should be out in the next month or so. So that would be cool, oh great.
Speaker 1:And Terri, thank you so much for coming on. We hope to have you back. I don't know if we've told you that yet or not, but we do hope to have you back and I know that this conversation will be a gift to many listeners out there. So we appreciate you, we're cheering you on, we're able to be in community with you, but for now, I think that we are going to wrap up this conversation. Kirk, do you have any lasting words for us?
Speaker 2:Well, no, I don't Other than read Unlikely Nomads be looking for it. I'm going to be reading it again, and I know my wife enjoys it as well. And, terri, it has been just a delight and a pleasure to be in closer proximity to your heart, because it's contagious. I know, in the midst of all of this, you're a man, at least in my mind, who is a mentor, who models over everything a pursuit of God, an endless pursuit of God, and not just stagnating where you're at. That's the heart of it all, and so thank you for modeling that. You're welcome.
Speaker 3:And, by the way, this sounds like a paid announcement, but I totally believe in what you two are doing. I encourage your listeners to stay locked into each episode because, both what you're doing and how you're doing it you're coming alongside the people of God's at work and trying to help encourage them, coach them, resource them, way to go. I believe so much in what you're doing is one of the reasons that I came on to join you with the podcast, so you bet.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to the Reconstructing Passes podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and review.
Speaker 2:And if you're interested in leaning into this conversation further, we'd love for you to be a part of a special online community coaching space called Reconstructing Pastors Cohort. For details, visit our website at wwwbridgeinrinocom. See you at the next episode.
