Reconstructing Pastors Podcast
Welcome to the "Reconstructing Pastors Podcast" with your hosts, Ruth Lorensson and Kirk Romberg. Join us on a transformative journey as we dive deep into the heart of faith, calling, and community in the midst of church deconstruction.
In this thought-provoking podcast, we invite you to eavesdrop on our discussions with each other (and our guests) as we unravel the intricacies of navigating life beyond the institutional church model. We confront the church's complexities, controversies, and challenges in order to understand what we need to leave behind as we discover what's next.
With humor, empathy, and a dash of irreverence, we engage with profound questions surrounding faith and church culture. And we do so with an unwavering commitment to creating a safe, real and welcoming space.
Tune in to the "Reconstructing Pastors Podcast" and be part of a movement that envisions a better way for the church and all those who seek meaning in a rapidly changing world.
Subscribe now to join the conversation and embrace the reconstruction journey.
Reconstructing Pastors Podcast
The Great Pastor Resignation: Questioning the Resilience Narrative
In this podcast episode, we explore the reality many pastors face - the weight of unrealistic expectations and pressures associated with pastoral ministry. A viral article by Reverend Alexander Lang, titled 'Departure: Why I Left the Church,' triggered our discussion.
His article is an honest and raw portrayal of the dilemmas many pastors face. It strikes a chord with many as it highlights the systemic issues within the church that often lead to exhaustion and disillusionment among pastors. You can read it here.
In this episode, we discuss these red flags, including how churches are run as businesses, pastors acting as CEOs and the impact consumerism has on spiritual formation.
We question the resilience narratives that encourage pastors to learn how to best manage their institutions. Rather, we explore why we continue to uphold a system that continues to cause harm to pastors, congregants, and the message of Jesus to the world - and whether leaving it is not a failure but a courageous step toward a different expression of community and call.
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You're listening to the Reconstructing Pastors podcast. I'm Ruth Lawrenson.
Speaker 2:And I'm Kirk Romberg. We're recovering pastors talking about what it looks like to make sense of our calling and community expression on the other side of deconstruction.
Speaker 1:Our hope is to create a safe space to explore the bigger picture of the church, both the present state of the American evangelical church and what the future may hold for those who are searching for a better way.
Speaker 2:We're really glad you're here. Let's get started. Well, hey, good morning Ruth. How's it going?
Speaker 1:Great Thanks. Yeah, I'm doing well, looking forward to this conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we have a good conversation ahead of us and, in fact, you sent an article to me about a week ago as a point of interest and you said this thing's going viral. That has to do with what we're doing on the podcast. You should give it a read, and I did, and since then I've noticed there have been 350,000 downloads of this article. So you're right, this thing is going viral and there's something about this article that caught your attention and I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about what that is and just kind of give us a summary of what's happening here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks, kirk. Yeah, there's. The article is by Reverend Alexander Lang and it's headed departure why I left the church. And I think it's so interesting that it's gone viral, like we were joking earlier, that it's a lot more than my Instagram account. I think it's probably because it's hitting, you know, some nerves and it's a really interesting article and I've mentioned to you, kirk, that I thought it could be a really interesting place to start in terms of talking about this.
Speaker 1:The past is dilemma, you know, and I think there is a dilemma here in terms of where pastors find themselves, the place they find themselves in such a time as this. So, you know, obviously it's got a lot of interest why I left the church and I thought we could just talk through it a little bit and look at some of the reasons. I mean, I read through it and I just thought, yeah, you know, I can understand why he left the church. I was a little also disappointed that there was not so much questioning as to why some of those things existed, so it just like had so much in that article, which I think is a great start for us to have a conversation.
Speaker 1:You know what I find, kirk, and we'll touch really strongly on this in this conversation is that there seems to be this tension around a pastor's response to some of these system issues and that's what this article is raising it's system issues and there is a response that is about resilience, about muscling up, about like, just if you can just be better and better and stronger and delegate more and go to emotionally healthy conferences and have a bunch of counseling, you should be fine and you should be able to do it. And then there's also this other side and maybe there's I'm sure there's people in between this too but then there's this other side of people who are actually saying hang on a minute, leaving is okay, it's not a failure. Actually, maybe right on the other side of this, maybe God is doing something and maybe it's time to question the system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's well phrased, as you're talking. I was thinking you know, just to give a little bit of context for our listeners, the article is called Departure why Left the Church? And it's written by, as you said, alexander Lang. He's a pastor in the Presbyterian Church and he has been pastoring in the same congregation for about 10 years and he resigned just a couple of weeks ago. And to his congregation he said well, just writing sermons and delivering them really well every single week. I just got just really burnt out on that. But the article he actually unpacks a lot more reasons and and then he concludes the article with a statement that he says stay tuned, I'm going to write more about this, but I'm starting a business to connect people in relationship with other people, which I thought was really interesting, because I am curious if there's not more in that statement that might look more like the church than the church he's actually been pastoring. And and then he concludes with some closing comments and words in a poem that is very poignant to what he's bringing.
Speaker 2:But back to your point, ruth. There isn't necessarily in the article, it's maybe implied but not stated a question of the system, and that's kind of what I was thinking as I read the article is at what point do we put, like you said, ruth, the onus on the pastor to delegate more, to be more emotionally healthy, to to have rhythms that are good and sustainable? At what point do we say, well, wait a minute, hang on here. At what point do we need to relook at the system and say that the whole thing is broken, especially when maybe one out of three finishes in this system? Well, and wouldn't we call the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you know we and we can talk about this in a little bit, but I think this is coming out. We saw this in COVID, right? We saw there's this like anxiousness over pastoral ministry, because we started to see. I think it's like what is it? One in three pastors quit.
Speaker 2:Well, one in three finishes well. So two out of three. Two out of three don't make it in the system. Well, 42%, at least in the article, have considered quitting since COVID.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So this is huge. This is a huge. This is why the article's gone viral, right, and I remember during COVID I was I was in pastoral ministry during COVID and I think it just put this incredible pressure on something that was already pressurized and and some of the things in the article what it raises are unrealistic expectations.
Speaker 1:He's like saying, basically, if you want a great career and if you want a great life, don't be a pastor. You know it's. It's like you get crap pay. That the pay is is really not going to enable family life. It's not going to enable someone to have a a healthy lifestyle if they're raising a family. So that's number one. But then it's not just pay, it's the levels of expectation for the pastor to. I think one line in the article it was like you have a thousand bosses and the fact of the matter is, is that what it raises is that basically you have a lot of consumeristic behavior from the church that expect a lot from this one person. So I mean that just cut. That in itself is just one topic to unpack. Like why is that okay? And not just for the pastor but for the congregation? What is that doing for the pastor's role and spiritual formation in the congregation when that dynamic is allowed to be at play.
Speaker 2:I think you're really hitting on a very significant topic that rarely gets talked about, at least out loud, because we start going into some core issues that are underneath the stated issues of the local church. I mean, one of the lines that he said in the article was that it's expected of him to grow the business. And if we just take that statement for a moment and say wait a minute, jesus said I will build my church, the gates of hell will not prevail against it, but he didn't put upon his followers the responsibility for growing an organization.
Speaker 1:Making disciples yes growing an organization.
Speaker 2:Now, that's a very American value that we've imposed onto the mission of Jesus and actually becomes a mission underneath the mission that, at least in my opinion, you serfs the mission of Jesus. We have to grow this organization. So the effect is that the church, at least the organization, becomes a provider of religious goods and services rather than an equipper of spiritually mature adults who own their unique sense of calling in the life and mission of Jesus.
Speaker 2:And then people essentially become consumers of religious goods and services and Ruth I would even dare to say dependence spiritual dependence upon the church to provide for them where they're not being equipped to provide for themselves. And that's just the beginning. Is this formative dynamic that we've created that actually misshapes and misforms people in the sense of mission on the body of Christ?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, let's just go back to the article. So this is the list of unrealistic expectations for the role of the pastor, and I think just listing them and thinking, like we were just saying, it's not just detrimental for the pastor to uphold all of these things, but what it actually does to the body of Christ in terms of creating dependency from the role of the pastor, I think it really is really questionable. And so this is what he says. Putting all this together, you can see how crazy this is. This is the role of the pastor.
Speaker 1:Firstly, you're a professional speaker. Secondly, you're a CEO, which is actually real business language. It's dated business language, but it's business language which is a whole, like I think you just tapped into it, but it's a whole conversation. Why on earth we have churches with some level, like at least some level of business model? Number three he says you're a counselor again questionable. Number four you're a fundraiser, because suddenly money's really important, because actually if success is more and better and bigger, then you actually have to grow this thing and you have to seek out finances. Number five he says you're a human resources director. Number six you're a master of ceremonies. And number seven, believe it or not. You're a pillar of virtue because you know people are expecting you to be this perfect representation of God, which I don't think is.
Speaker 1:I think it misses the mark on being human and being accessible as one of God's children, you know. I mean, how did we get here? I think that's my question. It's like, how did we arrive at that package? And obviously you know this guy's from a certain denomination, so it's not gonna apply to every denomination. But generally speaking, I think if pastors are listening to this podcast, they are probably nodding their head right now a little bit at least to a few of those things of like yep, yep, yep, you know so. So is this even realistic of what Jesus has asked us to do in pastor or ministry? I think that's a question I have.
Speaker 2:I think it's an excellent question because it's interesting. As you were listing off those expectations, I thought to myself are these even in the Bible, and how much has the institutionalization of church impacted not only what we do and why we do it, but how we do it? I mean, maybe we can make a case for being a professional speaker, but actually today, in a media-driven you know, televised, ted Talk world, the expectation to be exceptional is very high and we like our speaking. There's obviously a very important role for speaking and preaching and teaching. Paul says to Timothy preach the word in season and out. The scripture says that they were devoted to the apostles' teaching. And yet I also wonder if we haven't elevated this thing of speaking so much that it's become Corinthian in nature. What I mean by that is the Corinthians also had an issue with speaking that Paul addressed. They loved their speaking, they loved their speakers and they pitted speakers against one another. So that's just one thing.
Speaker 1:And I think that's a really important thing that I'm sorry to interrupt, but I think you know, because actually we're not supposed to love the preachers, we're supposed to love the teaching. So really that is about there's an appetite, a hunger in the body of Christ, I think, to learn and grow, and part of that comes through teaching. But when we look at how people grow even just like if you look across you know the whole world of communication of how people really grow that you know the takeaway on a Sunday from a preacher is pretty low. And so for me I know, like you know, the times where I've really been formed and grow and feel like I've come under or being part of more not come under but being part of teaching is around a coffee with someone who I'm having a conversation with, and so I wonder again whether where have we got this from?
Speaker 1:How come we've got this one person? They are responsible for all of the teaching in the church. Now, I know there's teams sometimes, but there's a lot of churches out there who rely on that one person. Usually they're a man, which again is another issue. But I think the diversity issue, the how we as human beings learn through you've talked about this before. Behavior and being part of a conversation is so much more applicable to spiritual formation than just hearing preaching, and yet so we've got this kind of model that's burning. I mean, this is what this guy was saying in the article, alex. He was saying you know that actually I'm so weary of doing preachers every week.
Speaker 2:I think to myself. You know, clearly, in Acts 2.42, the scripture says they were devoted to the Apostles teaching and we assume what that means is a weekly sermon. It needs to, needs to occur, and I'm not sure where we crossed that bridge from the devotion to teaching to everything centers around a weekly sermon. Sermons are great, don't get me wrong. I've written plenty of them and I like to do that, and there's an important place. I just wonder if we are, if we would be more devoted to the Apostles teaching, if we preached a little bit less and learn to practice it a lot more together, would that look, would that be a maybe a more suitable understanding of the phrase devoted to the teaching, if we're practicing it together, because to me that's where the devotion comes into play.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Not just that we look at it or listen to it or say it every week, but that, no, this is something that we're going to commit our lives to together in community. So that was just one thing. Is that the speaking? And then maybe a little bit. I mean, there's one example in scripture where Paul is collecting money from churches to give to a poor church. Other than that we don't see a weekly collecting of money except for one occasion. And so this idea of being and that goes into a whole other topic we'll talk about maybe at another point is is the weekly tithe and what the scripture has to say or doesn't have to say about that. But this idea of being a professional fundraiser, I mean that's correct, but to weigh that against the scripture, there's a there's a massive gap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think. Well, I think that that is linked to the CEO. I mean, I find this one of the saddest part. There's stuff in this article that we don't know. So we don't know how much Alex is questioning this.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure that there is a journey there, the matter of fact, where he talks about being a CEO. I'm just going to quote this little bit here. He says the second required skill is that you are like the CEO of a company, anticipating not only what the current people in your church want, but also how to bring new people through the door. You have to grow the business and enter the conditions we're in right now. That's super difficult because I've, as I've discussed in previous posts, the culture is such that people don't really want to go to church anymore. Now, the thing that grabs my attention is not that the culture is such that people don't want to go to church anymore, is that is this issue of what? How come pastors are CEOs of companies? Like, what is that about and where? How did we get that? And again, is this gospel Like, where did this come?
Speaker 1:I mean, I know that this is a whole podcast episode right here, but I and we're just going to touch on it, but I think that that was one of the things that came up for me in this article is like, actually, we're upholding some potentially we're upholding something here that we shouldn't be upholding as part as as pastoral ministry and of course, he's going to end up fundraising if he's seeing the church as a business, if he's seeing if he, if he or she as a pastor is going to be a person who is sensing that we've got to grow this thing like a business would grow.
Speaker 1:You know, that's very like you say. It's very different from having a generosity around a community so that you can be connected to mission, connected to the poor. I'm not negating the need for money and staffing and all of that stuff. I think there is some level of that, but I mean it feels like when you start talking CEO level, it feels like this is top heavy. This is like, instead of this, like being a spiritual community that will need some level of money to be active and present and vibrant in the community, especially when it comes to serving the poor, widows and orphans, like the early church. The language of CEO and running a company seems like way off to me from that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, and, and you're right, there is a level of finances where I don't know that the church necessarily has to be involved in every aspect of an individual's giving.
Speaker 2:You know, the way I always kind of learned, within at least evangelical systems, is no, you bring the whole tithe to the storehouse, taken from you know the Old Testament book of Malachi, and bring that into the New Testament, and there is some place for pay and staffing. Scripture says you know, don't muzzle the ox while it's treading out the grain. But today, with the whole you know business model and the CEO of a company, it becomes a whole different animal when the primary focus, week after week after week, is to have enough money to support your own overhead and and the financial goals of the institution, and then the resources are veering away from mission, away from the poor, away from places that need to hear the good news for the very first time, and so this idea of being a professional fundraiser puts a lot of weight on an individual or a staff to to constantly be in this mode of meaning money and people on the receiving end of that, to be in a mode of constantly thinking we're not quite doing enough, we need to give more, be more generous. And so it becomes this, this insatiable appetite for more.
Speaker 1:And then I think also it has these knock on effects for everything else. So I think you know, if there's this pressure to fundraise or raise money or grow it financially for good reasons right, because that there's not many churches out there that are going after buildings or bigger staffing or bigger budgets, because they that they're just greedy, like they would never say that it's usually for good reasons. It's usually so we can be a light in the city or it's usually for something. But what happens when that becomes the focus is that you start treat, you start seeing people differently, even people.
Speaker 1:I mean like he says in the article. Let me just bring this up again. But he says, you know, anticipating not only what the current people in your church want, but also how to bring new people through the door. So suddenly, money is about bringing people through the door. Hang on, hang on a minute. What, what? What's happened here? Is it about allowing people to meet with Jesus or is it about understanding that the more people in your church will provide more weekly tithes, more volunteer hours? And now I, as I'm speaking I know I have a cynical I'm sounding, but I think it's like a really important question, because actually, do you start seeing new people who come in on your Sunday gathering as, oh great, you know I, where's the motivation here? Like, suddenly, does it get distorted? Is I guess that's what I'm asking. I'm not saying that it's evil, or, but I wonder how much compromise gets in there into the heart of motivation.
Speaker 2:You know I think it's well asked how much do we inadvertently begin to see people as human resources as opposed to seeing their God-given potential, as those who have been made in the image of God, who have a unique God-given purpose in this world? Let's find that out together. It's kind of like God has a wonderful plan for God loves you, but we have a wonderful plan for your life. So, yeah, it can have a subtle distortion on on how we view people who come through the door and and what it is that we want of them.
Speaker 2:We want them to join, we want them to help this Sunday thing and we want them to give money and and that sounds very straightforward, maybe even crass, I apologize for that, but at the end of the day that's and then we define that as living out the mission of Jesus and we say, well, wait a minute, I thought the mission of Jesus was out there and, and maybe there's a small piece of it that's in here, but we're, I think, missing it if we feel like the entire spectrum of the mission of Jesus occurs 10 o'clock in a Sunday morning at this address, and, and so I wrestle with that, and and I wrestle with, maybe, how it postures the church in the community rather than looking at the larger community around a church as as people where we want to shine.
Speaker 2:Let me rephrase this I think there's a sense where it can easily posture a church to look at. The community is existing to meet our need to get larger as a church rather than us as a church existing to serve them, love them, bless them, shine the light of the good news of Jesus.
Speaker 2:However, we want to say it regardless of what kickback it might get for us, but the this is not a business investment here.
Speaker 2:This is a a. The community is a environment in which we acknowledge the, the beauty and the infinite worth of people by serving them in a way that expresses the love of Jesus, with no strings attached, and maybe that's a little bit more what Jesus had in mind when he said love your neighbor as yourself, not love your neighbor as yourself, so that you can grow your church yeah, I mean, you know these are really important topics and actually I would see them as this article.
Speaker 1:For me, kirk is kind of it's the red flags, it's it's the hang on a minute, let's just not read this article. And and I do want to empathize, actually, with the pastors, because the real thrust of this article from Alex was this is crazy like this is gonna destroy my family, this is destroying my mental health. I'm getting out of here. That's real. You know. That's an absolute, real pressure. And they and pastors are real human beings too. You know that God loves, that God cares for in terms of well-being, health, emotional, mental, spiritual health.
Speaker 1:But as well as that, what it did for me was raise these big red flags. I was thinking you can't read this article and skirt over these things. So we're talking about the, the unrealistic expectations. We're talking about the bit this kind of business model comes through there, like what, why? And then also I wanted just to move on really quickly to talk about.
Speaker 1:He says you know, finally, you're expected to be this pillar of virtue in the community and your family, meaning you must be blameless or morally pure. That's what he says. Your spouse and your children should all be perfect or close to it. I think for me, kirk, you know again, and and all of these, all of these points that we're bringing up we are gonna go into more thorough details in in these big giant topics, because we're really raising giant topics right now in future episodes. But for me, I think you know, when I think through some of the these giant tragedies and disasters that keep coming out of the church right now, unfortunately, I can think of very recent ones, of pastors really messing up. I wonder whether some of it's got to do with this, this, this like well, we've got to be these superhuman beings and actually what it's doing is it's masking this undercurrent, this of sin. Often that can happen because we're just too afraid as pastors, too afraid to be honest, because, goodness me, what will that do you know?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What would that do I mean? Honestly, I think of anything. It would just endure people to you all the more.
Speaker 2:But but the system, it doesn't fit the system. And I think he kind of closes out by saying you know, the bottom line is, I realized that I spend the rest of my. If I spend the rest of my life fighting a system that is not designed for someone like me, I'm gonna end up angry, bitter, broken shell of a human being. So he sees his trajectory and he says you know, this is not what I signed up for. And and I wonder how many of those 42% who have considered leaving would it say the same thing this is not what I signed up for. I signed up to say yes to Jesus. I signed up to because I felt like God had his hand on me, to, to, to live out and help others live out God's kingdom purposes in the world, but all of this other stuff is not what I signed up for.
Speaker 2:So it comes back to that question at what point to read, relook at the system and say you know, you know, it's kind of Peter Schizzero. He in emotionally healthy relationships, he talks about a family system being like a broken bike and how we just kind of learn to ride the broken bike rather than fixing the bike. But but honestly, ruth, when I think about the broken bike of institutional church, I wonder. There is so much, not only that is broken. We're so far down this path that to me it's not a matter of fixing the bike or trading it in for another bike, but even considering an entirely different mode of transportation altogether, if I'm going to use his analogy also Kirk, you know on that one, because we're talking about a system.
Speaker 1:So I think that's that's really the crux of what we're talking about in terms of the pastor's dilemma. You know it's it. Should I stay or should I go? Should I be resilient and try and work this broken bike? And and then, if I, if I just get to the point where I feel like I have to give up, then I'm seen as a failure or should I go? Am I following the voice of God and am I like rediscovering a new bike? And I apologize if that's just too simplistic, but I think that there is that tension. I mean, I've seen it that you know there is this mode of resilience and it's seen as this kind of bad thing to leave.
Speaker 2:I think you're exactly right and and I think that that resistance is is so much a part of the unspoken culture of the institution, that one who is thinking about the possibility of redirecting their life from a traditional pastoral context to something different. I mean, there's a sense almost where you're quote quitting the ministry or you're not being true to your call. You're you're not being faithful, and I think that another question that I had as I read through this article, ruth, was is that true? Is it true that for me to be faithful to my call as a pastor is to be faithful and loyal to the institution, that if, if I leave one or say no to one, does that mean I'm also leaving and saying no to the other? We're so immersed in this system that it's difficult to separate out the two, and I guess I would say that my encouragement for anyone who might be identifying with that question is that, no, you're not being unfaithful. In fact, you might be waking up to the greatest expression of your faithfulness to your call If you begin to allow your mind to go down the path of saying wait a minute, this is not what I signed up for.
Speaker 2:I did sign up for following Jesus. I did sign up for leading others to do the same. What would that look like for me to do that differently? I got kind of excited, ruth, when I was reading. Towards the end of his article he said he's going to start a business more on that to come he said, so I'm looking forward to reading it. And he said the heart of his business is connecting people in relationship with other people, and I thought now we're getting to something that to me felt a little bit more like church if I can use that word than everything else that he described in the previous paragraphs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, you know I've had many conversations with people who have been vicar or pastors in England. They're vicar, you know we've got different denominations and you know some of them are becoming coaches, some of them are satinate businesses. But it's interesting to me how similar the qualities of, and the heart is still the same of. Actually I want to help people journey towards spirituality, to understand Jesus more, but it's just outside the context of that institutional framework. So, yeah, I agree with you and I think that's such a good question, because our first call in my mind, anyhow, what? For me, my first call was to follow Christ. And then what institution, how that is expressed, is a different thing.
Speaker 1:If you are still in pastoral ministry and you are seeing a colleague quit, don't write them off, you know. Don't. Don't think that they're quitting the ministry. They might not be. They might actually be, like you said, more more close to being who, who they are in Christ and ever before. So I think it's it's it's an invitation to really listen and come close to people in that space. I'm really grateful for Alexander of writing this. I think it's been super helpful for people, whether they agree with him or not, to just see what he was having to uphold and the reasons as to why he's made this step towards his future and towards fulfilling his calling as a pastor, yeah, yeah, and and my sense, though though he didn't say it expressly is that he gets that as well and that he is and I pray the best for him Like to me.
Speaker 2:I feel excited for his decision, I feel excited for the new venture, I feel excited to read it, and I hope that his words kind of ignite something a little bit similar in the hearts and lives of other people who have a desire and a sense that God's called me to serve pastorally, to help other people in their faith journey, but who find themselves, maybe instead serving this this weekly treadmill and are quietly wondering how do I get off? How do I, you know, how do I redirect my outward life to match a little bit more what's going on in the inside of my heart, so that my core values are being expressed and so that I'm actually experiencing and modeling the abundant life that I'm trying to lead other people to possess as well?
Speaker 1:And I think, as we're wrapping up this conversation, I think it's important in terms of of you, of what is happening. We might, you know, I don't know where our listeners are going to be we're going to have some listeners who are pastors, some who are, you know, have invested in the local church for a long, long time, and we're going to have some people who are just like, have been outside of it for a long time, and many, many more people. But I think, when it comes to discerning what's going on and and trying to understand our response to articles like this and this is just one, you know, this is just what. It is just one article and it's really kind of sharing this true nature of the heavy weight of what pastoral ministry looks like and it raises some, some significant red flags of the system of the church.
Speaker 1:To me, I think it's just really important to to listen and to have empathy. I think that there is a level you know reading through the comments of this article. Like you said, it's gone like viral, so there's a lot of comments in the article too. We just we'd love you to read it if you're listening.
Speaker 1:I think it'd be really helpful. We'll we'll probably tag it in our end notes on this podcast, but there is a level of harm that is happening. Whether we blame whoever we blame for that, the reality is that it's happening. It's happening to pastors, it's happening to congregants and it's it's happening to the message that's being conveyed to the world. And so I cook. I don't have all the answers. We are not here to provide any of the answers, but we're here because we are so aware of that fact and we want to discover how can we return to being the body of Christ that is offering healing, that is offering wholeness.
Speaker 1:And so, whether you, you know, wherever you find yourself, the fact that there is an article out here where a guy is going, this is traumatic, this is trauma. And that's just one person, and my guess is that he's representing so many more, and he's not even representing the congregants and he's not even representing all the other categories that I just said. But there is trauma, there is hurt, there is harm. Is there good stuff happening in the church? I'm sure there is, but we cannot I feel like we cannot turn a blind eye to that. And it's got to the point where not only is it harming us within the church, people who are following Jesus, but it's really harming the message of Jesus to the world, and so that, for me, is the real reason for inviting people to not just take sides of well, we've just got to be resilient, we've got to stay or we've got to go Like let's just be in tune with what God is saying you know yes, 100%, and I think that's a real key statement.
Speaker 2:A real key question is when we take a step back and we consider 42% of pastors considering quitting since COVID and probably the majority of those not making that decision to quit because you've heard the statement before as much as I have what would I do? How would I earn money? And so that keeps a lot of pastors stuck. But when we consider that fact and pastors resigning so a lot of pastors actually have made that decision, have resigned and are expressing their pastoral calling in different ways and when you consider 40 million people leaving the evangelical church in the last 20 years that's 2 million people a year you know my mind starts asking OK, what are the signals here? What is the bigger picture of what Jesus is saying to his church? Is Jesus inviting his people on to something new?
Speaker 2:So, rather than seeing this as a bad thing that we keep fighting, what if God's at work in the midst of this, leading people on to something fresh and to something new and into something life-giving? So those are the conversations, ruth, that I think are at that we would really encourage our listeners just to lean in and have with people. These are things that pastors think about, leaders think about but don't tend to talk about, and our encouragement to a listener would be to find a safe place to have a conversation. You know that doesn't have to be Bridget and Rhino, that doesn't have to be us, that doesn't have to be a reconstructing pastor's cohort. Find any space for a safe conversation and, as to your point earlier on in this talk, ruth, to listen, to pay attention to what is God saying. So what do you think?
Speaker 1:I think you know, sometimes I'm aware of these like quotes on hearing the voice of God, and there's absolute truth in these statements. But we're often encouraged like, well, you need to go and find a quiet, still space to hear the voice of God, and that is true and that is special when that happens. But as someone who has been in prophetic ministry for a number of years, I always like to say, well, actually we also need to hear God in the noise, because our whole life is cluttered and, especially if you're a pastor, it's gonna be noisy and, yeah, you can go off and you know, hear God in those special times and I encourage you to do that. But sometimes God will be speaking to you in the noise and he's trying to get your attention and it won't be even the still small voice.
Speaker 1:It might be that you're feeling something in your body that is not right. It might be that gut check, that feeling that you're the questions. It might be that when your head hits the pillow at night there's something that just is, there's a thought that that you're thinking about from the day. That just doesn't settle right. And I would say, pay attention to those things, because that very well might be God speaking to you in the noise. If you tune in, you might be surprised at what he's saying. That's so good.
Speaker 2:When I think about the heart of Jesus in this space and this is for me and a response that I felt like I made to what Jesus was telling me, when I began to actually pay attention, like you're suggesting, and I felt like Jesus was saying those very familiar words come to me, come to me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest for your souls and take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for my yoke is easy, my burden is light and you will find rest for your souls. That seems like a very different experience than I think, what a lot of pastors unfortunately experience, but I do believe that that is the heart of Jesus for people and that's the heart of Jesus for the pastor.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the Reconstructing Pastors podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and review.
Speaker 2:And if you're interested in leaning into this conversation further, we'd love for you to be a part of a special online community coaching space called Reconstructing Pastors Cohort. For details, visit our website at wwwbridgeinrinocom. See you at the next episode.
